A Cliff’s List Reader reviews the Cliff’s List Convention
Arriving at the seminar the morning of July 15, I had just finished my two-week hiatus. I had decided to take a full two weeks of not reading any seduction materials, including books, newsletters or videos. Since I am an avid reader and love this topic, this was very hard to do, very much like breaking an addiction. I took this break on the understanding that the subconscious mind cannot properly absorb information to the point of implementation, if it is constantly being fed new data without any breaks for meditation and absorption. So when I arrived at the seminar, my mind was eager and hungry!
Montreal is a beautiful city that is in a time warp. Almost everything looks as it did in the late 1970′s. Overspending on the 1976 Olympics put the city in a deep hole from which it is still recovering. The hotel was elegant and mostly well maintained but again I felt like I was in the 1970s by the look and feel of the place.
The seminar room was an elegant ballroom, smaller than those typically used by David DeAngelo. There were soft white lighting panels for the cameras, which are far less harsh on the eyes than the floodlights I had seen at DYD seminars.
The stage had two chairs and much of the seminar was conducted in an interview format, with a guy named Claude William from the Montreal Lair asking much of the questions. William asked some great questions and was an excellent interviewer, but he needs to watch the DYD Body Language video; he regularly sat with his legs crossed , which as I understand from several women is a big NO-NO for an Alpha Male! Other than that, he was great.
Some questions from the audience we allowed as well, and I got a chance to ask several. This was breakthrough number one for me! I had been working on inner confidence, approach anxiety, and so forth, and here I was conversing with PUAs and asking them questions in front of a live audience. For some reason, I had a bigger mental obstacle with AMOGs than I ever did with women, and I am glad to be getting this handled.
DISCLOSURE: I am in no way “affiliated” with this seminar. I did buy Craig a drink on Friday night, and he works for David D., but I don’t think he remembers. I have helped out at a couple of David D. seminars in the past.
First up was Stephane Hemon of IdeaGasms.com. He is advocating a completely natural approach to seduction. He claimed he did not rehearse for the part because he is working hard on being in the here and now and believes that routines imply that you’re a lower-value person to begin with. He discussed the four types of energy suckers that you want to avoid in the world and how to recognize them. He talked briefly about how to give women squirting orgasms. And the most important point of his presentation was the idea that he no longer “games” women; he simply qualifies them, based on REAL criteria that he has and no false qualifier B.S.
Next up was Dr. Alex Benzer aka Dr. Tao. A very well spoken and highly educated man from Harvard and Cambridge. He teaches a ”complete system” mix of Western and Eastern knowledge. The three components are: 1. Abundance/Wealth-consciousness; 2. Enlightened Self-Interest; and 3. The Be-Do-Have Philosophy of Success.
The latter was interesting: to be a PUA, first you need to BE a PUA, internally. Next you need to DO the things that a PUA does. THEN, and only then, will you have the results of a PUA. In other words, techniques, although important, come LAST on your development path. In that regard he did give some specific sexual exercises to help one become more proficient in bed. These three simple steps apply to all areas of life, and most people take these steps backwards, which is why they are not successful.
Next up was Dave M. of Insiderinternetdating.com. 97% of men quit online dating within four months due to lack of results, and there are four reasons why they suck: 1. Their profiles suck; 2. Their photos are horrible; 3. They send out bad emails; 4. They do not understand the psychological process. The first thing you need to do is define your target market, and then become immersed in what you’re doing by learning, applying and modifying. The magic formula is Mystery (the concept, not the guy) + Intrigue = Interest. You need to have a powerful, positive intent. If you have five dates lined up for the week, as opposed to just one, your entire physiology will change and this will be evident to each of the five women you see.
A lot of good tips by Dave M. if you’re interested in online dating. I got a chance to talk to him a couple of times and he is a
good, down-to-earth guy with a lot of insight. You would not think of him as a PUA if you just met him and were discussing other topics.
We broke for lunch and came back to see Brent of absolutepowerdating.com. He was once roommates with David D. and Rick. Everything we choose to do gives us a reward on some level. For example, what am I GAINING by not being consistent with women? Perhaps it’s the ability to be right in my view of the world, or to avoid rejection. Fear of success is a real issue for people. Stop trying to become successful with women, just BE that way. I must decide what I want and give the brain continuous reinforcement. Be attached to nothing and yet committed to everything. I become what I think about most. Understand that failure is the best teacher. Always act and believe that she is hitting on me, because whatever I know will happen is exactly what will happen!
Next was Tyler Durden. He talked about the two types of PUA, the Naturally attractive guy, and the Mechanical Genius. Both skill sets are important and one follows the other. There are constant seeming contradictions in the knowledge we get from this community, like chick logic for guys. As in the advice “just be yourself man! Don’t put on an act!” vs. “hey, being myself isn’t getting results, so I need to change who I am to get results!”, and so on. However, Tyler has found that there are certain universals common to all
1. The frame I adopt (Direct vs. Indirect, etc.) is not as important as my confidence in the frame.
2. It is easiest for the high-status person in any interaction to be the least reactive when it comes to eye contact, laughter, clear voice projection and so forth.
3. The logical brain of the female is att racted to rich, tall, handsome. The emotional brain is captivated by social proof, and is attracted to the man that is sucking people in to his reality (this is why bartenders, bouncers, managers can att ract without having any good game).
4. To be High Status I need to be non-reactive, as discussed in point 2, but I also need to be PROACTIVE, as in going after what I want. I’ve found I’ve done quite well at body language and being the high-status person, but not so well in being proactive going after what I want . I need both! (Mental Breakthrough!)
5. Congruence is the prerequisite to being cool. When learning new BL or routine, it can look dorky at the outset, and may have to go through a period of being a try hard.
TONS of great info from Tyler and you’re going to have to get the product for the rest. He was definitely one of the speakers with the greatest volume of good information.
Next up, Cameron Teone (The One) from Fidentia. The word Fidentia is Latin for confidence and boldness, which is what these guys are all about. A lot of his presentation was based on his mASF post ”The f reedom to Exist”, which I highly recommend. Basically it’s about being comfortable in my own skin, adding what is useful to my personality and discarding what is not. Most people say they are comfortable with themselves but in actual fact it is very rare. Body language is the first thing to be worked on. Recognize that logic does NOT att ract women sexually, but emotion does. This is why as a general rule scientists, computer programmers, and so forth are not ladies men. So I need to release or unlock the emotional and creative side of my brain. The entire seduction process is about changing emotional states.
So stop analyzing and go for this fundamental change: adopt the five core attributes of a successful PUA (not techniques!):
1. Non-verbal communication. 55% Body language, 38% voice tonality
2. Verbal attributes. How interesting of a person am I? Develop ability to convey this through stories.
3. The ability to relate and connect on an emotional level with the woman.
4. Living a strong reality.
5. Confidence and a strong belief system.
You can read about “The Attributes” at buildatt raction.com
The only small criticism I have for Cameron is his diction. In his enthusiasm, some of his words and phrases were hard to decipher. This is something that can be improved with conscious awareness and practice. His information was great and his confidence was very strong, otherwise.
Next, Will from youaresoinmyway.com. It’s a good idea to befriend the bouncers where you go. Do this by getting there early. When I arrive, stop at the door and pan the room. Have a game plan: what type of woman am I looking for? This will set my state properly and help narrow my search. Gave some great tips on using a wing woman. Here are some universal cold reading things you can say to almost any woman with positive results:
1. I like how your eyes close when you laugh hard.
2. I can tell you are a very passionate person.
3. I can tell that you meter your words and think before you speak.
4. I can tell you give it your all when something is important to you.
5. You are a very sensual person that likes to be touched in just the right way.
6. You’re secure; love being a woman; friends would say you’re loyal.
7. Very difficult and a pain in the ass sometimes.
8. Friends would say you’re nurturing and caring.
Clothing is very important, and shoes are absolutely the number one item you need right. Always use double meanings when talking to women, as it’s extremely effective! Use backhanded compliments. Most women are proud of their work and their ethnic heritage, so these are good things to ask about in comfort to get her talking if you want. Make sure the sex you give her is her best ever; if so, she will put up with a LOT of BS from you. Be the guy with the “fun table” everywhere you go.
Steve Piccus of sexualawakenings.com talked about the necessity of having goals in life if I hope to attain anything. In order to get a deep understanding of women, he modeled lipstick lesbians, and learned all he could about them. Also he took massage classes. Massage can help a woman feel relaxed and intimate. He believes that women absolutely can pick up on the thoughts of men, so I need to feed the happy, positive side of myself and not the jealous, vindictive side. Gave several different eye contact techniques such as “Soul Gazing”, based on ancient rituals. Recommended eating fava beans and reading The Green Pharmacy by James Duke for sexual health. Check out his web site for soon-to-be-released videos on
Friday night was the after party at an art studio in Montréal. It was pretty cool. The music, in my 36-year-old opinion, became too loud. Impossible to talk to anyone! I enjoyed the first couple of hours though, before it got too cranked. There was nude body painting and acrobats, and other cool s-word.
I brought my girlfriend to the party and this was a huge breakthrough for me! In the past I would have been nervous to
intentionally take a hot woman to a location that I new was going to be filled with high-status males, and probably would have avoided it. Mystery, Tyler, Will, David Shade, David DeAngelo, Craig, Brent, Stephane and many others were all there. I introduced my GF to all of them except for David D. as I he was the only one I did not talk to at the party. I did not do any of the stupid clingy things I would have done in the past, either internally or externally, and I let her f ree for most of the night. A total mental breakthrough for me!
Saturday, July 16th.
Patty Contenta of sensualitysecrets.com has been on several DYD programs. Contemplate the difference between sensual and sexual. See more than just a woman’s body, view her posture and what it tells me about her confidence and her sensuality. Expand my sensual awareness by listening to unique music and identifying different sounds within; trying unique foods, and so on. This will equip me to create sensual moments! (Side note: if this is interesting to you, I highly recommend the book Think like Leonardo Da Vinci by Gelb to help develop your senses). Recognize that women wear clothes for the way they feel on their body. Different handshake, kino, and dancing techniques were given. With respect to dancing, my energy should be in my hips and I should open them up. Touch her as she invites it, give a little with boldness and then tease by taking it back. Good, sensual dance is the perfect metaphor for how a good seduction should progress. A good male dancer takes charge and leads but at the same time is very attuned to her cues. Doc of lifeskillsnetwork.ca talked a lot about becoming aware of what I project outwards. What is the first impression I give to others? When we see a guy with a hot woman, we often say “what does she see in him?” Take this question seriously! He had us do an exercise where we talk to a complete stranger about normal, everyday stuff, and then we rate each other from 1-10. This was a real eye opener! If I am an 8, then that is precisely what I am going to att ract in women. Ways to improve my rating are:
1. Better use of physical space.
2. Do I know where I am going in my life?
3. Whether I know what I am talking about is often decided before I even open my mouth
4. My look: like a leader or follower? Sexual or not? Clothes should enhance my physique, be slightly off-center.
5. Is my voice like a buddy or like a lover late at night?
Women are looking for confidence, status, warmth and authenticity, and a sense of humour, in that order. All of these things project outward by being socially popular. He gave great tips on quickly building a large social network. He explained that the only physiological difference between fear and excitement is my PERCEPTION of the event, whether positive or negative Bishop (Michael Emery) of www.new-alpha-com. WOW. Having never seen him before and being aware of some of the fighting between him and Ross Jeffries on TC’s blog, I was greatly anticipating this speaker. He sure had a lot of good things to say, and I am glad I took at least a few notes because my mind kept racing over the controversies and what I had imagined he would look like, and why Ross Jeffries was not speaking at this seminar, and so forth. It was hard for me to concentrate. I am going to need to see the video to get the full impact of his presentation (and many others too). Frankly, he seemed a bit nervous in his body language. I can imagine that this was an intense experience for him as well. But the content was excellent, to the degree I was able to concentrate.
Shyness can often be mistaken for aloofness. A great way to get over shyness is to take stage theater classes. My voice says so much more than just words; it is a projection of my conviction, my confidence and my beliefs. When I am really good at something, that is power, which means that I need to be conscious of who I might hurt with this power. When I have someone’s trust and confidence and attention, I am responsible for that.
My subconscious mind retains every single thing, like a packrat. I need to really delve into why I do the things I do and the way in which I do them. Often we do things in a manner that we are not even consciously aware of. Some good affirmations to direct the subconscious were given. Anything perceived as negative can be turned into a positive. For example in my case, my own shyness has led me to become a great reader and writer, and to learn many technical aspects of the real estate business that a more outgoing person would not have taken the time to do. Now I can create an outgoing personality to go with this inner knowledge. Toecutter (Steve Celeste) of www.smoothinteractions.com has an extremely interesting life. Every several years he drops everything he is doing and moves to another country. This means he has to find a new job, new friends, and learn the dynamics of an entirely new social environment. Sometimes this even means learning a new language, as he lived in Argentina and now lives in Montréal. Having lived in several countries myself, I found this extremely interesting, as he gave many insights on how to build a social network from scratch.
To begin with, it’s a mistake to hook up with a girlfriend at the outset. The first thing one needs to do is find a couple of different, cool guy friends. Next, have one or two regular hangout spots and get to know all the staff. Work on bringing that outside social life back home for barbecues and so forth. That way, when a high-quality woman comes along, I’ve already got built in social proof, and an actual interesting life that she can fit right into.
Our inhibitions with women come from being told as a child “don’t talk to strangers”; “don’t be a showoff”; and “kids should be seen and not heard”. So it’s a fear of being visible and being the center of attention, along with a fear of sexual rejection. The best way to get over the latter is to approach in a non-sexual manner. That way, if a rejection occurs it is not a sexual rejection, just part of a woman’s normal validation game that she plays. Later, if I like the girl, I can transition to a sexual nature.
Internet addiction is a huge problem creating approach anxiety, and it’s understandable that the first approach after getting off the computer is going to be the hardest. So talk to shop attendants and anyone I can talk to as a real human being to break out of the online mindset.
As far as routines go, contemplate the questions that I get asked over and over again, such as where I am from, or what I do for work. These form the perfect material for routines, because the target is highly likely to walk into it, and they comprise elements of my life that I know a lot about. So think about this deeply and come up with a variety of responses, incorporating all the personality-conveying elements that I want!.
He talked about the three simultaneous dances of courtship:
1. Body Language/Manipulation of Personal Space;
2. The Pursuer and the Pursued
3. The Dance of Energy.
There is way too much detail here to expound upon, but I found it highly valuable for getting me in the right headspace in my interactions. I strongly recommend research into Toecutter’s thoughts on this if you, like me, find yourself disoriented from time-to-time during an interaction.
Savoy (Nick) worked with Mystery. He told us to be genuine and have genuine intentions and not lie. I have a lot more power to get what I want than I may think. If I am in a relationship, it’s a bad idea to take these PUA skills and throw them in her face and rub it in. I should be genuine but not skip over the rules as far as wussiness, etc. If I want to att ract and hold a 9 or a 10 I need to have built a coherent and convincing id that is both attractive to her reality and congruent with who I am. I should therefore take the Venutian arts on my own terms.
He talked about people who post fake lay reports on mASF or other fakeness really hurt the community. The purpose is that we all contribute to a growing and expanding model of true experience that can help everyone.
If I do have a relationship with a hot woman, I need to keep sharpening my PUA skills (this does not necessarily mean f-wording other women!) otherwise I am practically guaranteed to wreck the relationship. Many guys learn this stuff because they want a girlfriend, which is cool, but once they get that girlfriend they stop learning and practicing and later have to go back and start all over again after they get dumped.
If I am not getting what I want from life or from women it is entirely due to limiting beliefs; it is all in my head. Juggler is a quirky, funny guy! He is very humble and admits to making LOTS of mistakes. He believes in a more genuine, direct approach. Mundane conversation, which others refer to as “boring”, is perfectly fine if done with the right tonality and a strong intent. In any pickup, I need to first understand where a woman is at, then make a connection with her, then lead her where I want to go.
People who have known each other for a long time can often glance at each other and completely size up a situation; it is the
opposite with strangers. For that reason, at the beginning of an interaction, my gestures and facial expressions need to be somewhat exaggerated.
Use descriptive language that involves all five senses. Questions tighten people up, so statements are better.
Positive presumptions: Presume she is into the things I am into and start talking about these. Assuming I have identified my target demographic, approaching this way has several advantages: I can quickly start talking about the stuff I like; I will have lots to talk about; if she’s into those things she’ll think I am a genius at intuition; I’ll screen out uninteresting women; at a minimum I will demonstrate that I am used to hanging with chicks of that nature and feel as though she’s slightly disappointed me.
Negative presumptions are GREAT for AMOG tactics, i.e.: “How old will you be when your mother stops dressing you?” (Presuming something negative).
Must escalate like this: Move forward each step as a REWARD for her being interesting or doing something I like. I must be just ever-so-slightly intimidating/scary, which is a show of power to her. A short window opens and I MUST show my sexual intentions during that window.
I should be into what I am talking about, but not attached to it (book recommendation: The Power of Now). If I am acting tentative, it’s a good sign that I am in my head and not in the moment.
An approach should be taken like breaking boards in Karate. If you are worried about getting your fingers broken, you will break your fingers! The key is to focus at a point BEYOND the board, and then you will go right through it easily. Instead of focusing on the opener, therefore, focus on where I expect to be AFTER the opener.
A method for overcoming any fear: Anytime I think of something I DON’T want to do, I FORCE MYSELF to go do it. For example, “man, it would sure be scary to approach THAT group”, then go approach!.
Status: The person who controls the group is NOT the one that everyone listens to. It is the one that everyone wants to TALK TO.
The floor was opened to questions. I asked Juggler what advise he had for those with relationships, since he mentioned that he had a girlfriend. He started to answer “Well, I am really not the person to ask, my specialty is…” So I cut him off and said, “Oh, it’s not going to well for you, eh?”. Everyone busted up, including him! He then responded with some good advice “Never threaten the relationship”, as in don’t threaten to walk out every time you don’t get your own way.
Like Tyler and Toecutter and a few others, he had TONS of info packed into a short segment. His theme was LMR, and he believes that he has solved LMR for good!
LMR is a horrible, uncontrollable fear built right into the circuitry of most women, and it is my job to ease her through it.
Mystery has talked a lot about LMR on mASF. I am not sure if he has yet given the precise cure for it or not in such an explicit way as he did here, so I am not going to reveal the details just yet. If Mystery tells me it’s ok, I will make a separate post on it, giving him all the credit, of course. I took extensive notes and believe I understand it thoroughly and can now explain it very well to others.
I will say that this one segment was worth the entire price of the seminar for me. This guy is a f-wording genius. Actually I felt that way to some degree about most of the speakers this was world-class stuff here.
Now Mystery was dressed in this ridiculous bee outfit; everything was yellow and black, right down to the little padded cover on his wireless microphone. Totally f-wording wack! Amazingly though, it did not take away from his presentation one bit; everyone was listening with rapt attention for the entire segment. There are not too many people who could wear such outrageous clothes and at the same time have people take them seriously on an academic discussion like this one.
I asked the question: “Is there anything we can do to speed up the 7-hour average?” Mystery responded that multiple venue changes were key to speeding up comfort, and explained why. Well, that covers the first two out of three days. The third day was the best out of the three! Get ready for Part Two of my Review, which includes David Shade, the Threesome Panel (Toecutter, David Shade, Steve Piccus), DJ, Sensei, Zan, Style and David DeAngelo! Stay tuned!!!
Cliff’s Comment: Unfortunately, there is for the time being no Part Two. Here is the explanation from Señorlukas: “I accidentally deleted it from my hard drive. I was writing the first two days by hand in my journal, then on the third day I was typing it into my computer . Later when I was really tired I was cleaning up my hard drive and I saw the file “Cliff’s List”, which I wrongly assumed was the info on the hotel, etc., that I no longer needed, so I deleted it.”